Welcome to this regular feature where we post some discussions we had between the group. After all, that's what the SWFA is all about. This month, a discussion I started about Thrawn's ranks throughout a variety of books and comics.

Thrawn's Ranks

Abel Pena: Okay, here's the problem thus far: in "Side Trip" (that little short that first came out in the AJ's and later reprinted in Tales from the Empire) Thrawn is unquestionably referred to as Grand Admiral, and this story is a lead in to the Derra IV incident, thus pre-ESB. This contradicts the TIE Fighter game and strategy guide and is actually the fault of Zahn, but seeing as how he *created* the guy, it still seems his right to declare when Thrawn became a Grand Ad.
Further more, I'm fairly certain the Vision of the Future says that Thrawn was promoted as quickly as possible, and since he was recruited during the first year of the Empire, you'd figure it wouldn't take 20 years!

Mike Beidler: Well, it certainly takes more than 20 years in today's US Navy to make Rear Admiral (Lower Half). And to make four stars, at least 30 years.

Adrian Ringin:I imagine that when the Emperor takes a personal interest in a military genius who has proven his worth before even joining, the 'rules' - which are what the Emperor can veto anyway - can signifigantly 'bent' to allow promotions or demotions at the Emperor's whim.
Can you image a petty bureaucrat dialling the Emperor's office and asking for an explanation of an 'irregular' promotion? I can, and it doesn't have a happy ending.

Abel:That it took Thrawn 20 years to become a Grand Admiral is ridiculous, given that he was trained as quickly as possible, and showed a natural ingenuity in regards to war tactics. Thrawn's barely a captain in Soldier of the Empire and Swarm, and of course a Vice-Admiral IN THE NARRATIVE that is part of the TIE Fighter official strategy guide.

Adrian: Ah, I see. You have a good point here. What is Swarm? Is it a SWAJ story by Zahn? When is it set? I haven't read Soldier of the Empire, so I don't really know anything about its setting or story.

Abel: Swarm is a Galaxy of Fear book. #9, I think.

Adrian: His true rank was concealed from the Empire at large - or at least that would seem to be the rationale for the secret promotion ceremony mentioned in Dark Force Rising. Perhaps these other ranks were just what the majority of the Empire was told. Thrawn would not have cared.
Of course, that still means that TIE Fighter's depiction of him wearing a Grand Admiral's uniform is stupid. And it doesn't explain why Palpatine promotes him in the game. Hmm, maybe his first promotion to Grand Admiral was so secret that Palpatine didn't know about it! :)

Abel: Also, in the conversation Thrawn and Jade had upon first meeting (Dark Force Rising), something comes up about Thrawn being promoted to Grand Admiral at the same time as the public dedication of the Imperial Palace. This implied to me something much earlier than around ESB-ROJ.

Jeff: We also see Thrawn as a Vice-Admiral in the game TIE Fighter being promoted to Grand Admiral, which takes place between ESB and ROJ. Which poses the question: How long was Thrawn in the Unknown Regions? (I haven't read the story yet.) There were only 6-10 months in that period (depending on your opinion. I'm for 7 months: Han says he was in carbonite for 6 *local* months.)
But of course, there had to be a continuity problem: In AJ#11's NewsNets,date 37:9:13 (about 7 months before ESB):"Word has it that Grand Admiral Thrawn [...] is en route to Coruscant. He has spent several years [...] near theOuter Rim." As I remember, he was an *Admiral* at the time. Sheeesh! And "Command Decision" was published in the same issue. This could have been read as a typo if the news story didn't go on and wonder how an alien could achieve this august military rank, and repeat the word Grand Admiral twice. How are we gonna fix that??? This is clearly a task for the Heroes of Fandom!
Any other references to Thrawn's past in the Zahn novels that I don't remember?

Adrian: Thrawn is one of my favourite SW characters, and I know a bit about him, though I have not read "Command Decision", "The Swarm" or "Making of Baron Fel", so I won't take them into account.
Thrawn was a Grand Admiral before Derra IV. Prior to Derra IV, it is implied that he had already spent considerable time serving the Empire in the Unknown Regions, perhaps several years. Although he was in Imperial territory just before Derra IV (and was partly responsible for the ambush) he headed back to the Unknown Regions as soon as his task was accomplished. (See "Side Trip part 1")
He had been promoted to Grand Admiral at a secret ceremony in the presence of Mara Jade. ("Dark Force Rising")
At some point he was a Colonel. ("X-Wing: Rogue Squadron")

Abel: Hmm, I didn't catch that. Interesting. What page is it on? (If available).

Adrian:Thrawn is a Colonel on p.161 of X-Wing: Rogue Squadron. It was when Loor was talking to the Captain of the Interdictor. It is mentioned that she served under "Colonel Thrawn", and she says she saw micro-jumping used to great effect in the Unknown Regions.
As for Thrawn's exile to the Unknown Regions, "Vision of the Future" reveals what that was all about, as well as what he was doing out there before he returned prior to "Heir to the Empire."
As for this NewsNet thing you mention, what is it meant to be? A regular unclassified newsflash from the SW universe? If so, it seems odd that the media would know Thrawn is a Grand Admiral and an alien, let alone his movements! I think the reporter in question would be due for a visit from some Imperial Intelligence thugs wanting a 'discussion' about the reporters source! And questioning how an alien could achieve this rank would probably be seen as treason. Another thing for said thugs to take up with the reporter!

Abel: Yeah, sort of. It's like the news. If I remember correctly, though, this transmission came through on a pirate frequency (Cynabar?), and isn't really traceable. Smugglers are usually better informed that the average Zev, anyway.

Adrian: Ok. Still, it seems odd that they would know so much. As for the TIE Fighter problems, there is a simple explanation: TIE Fighter created one version of Thrawn's past, in which he was a Vice-Admiral until just before Endor. Zahn created another version, in which Thrawn was not a Vice-Admiral at this time, and was definitely not promoted just before Endor. It is simply a question of which story you want to believe. Thrawn is Zahn's character, so I choose to believe what Zahn says.

Abel: It's simple if you buy into the theory of discarding contradictory stories or scenes when it suits convenience. Honestly, his creation or not, Zahn dropped the ball by not making a sort of patch for this; this distinct ascent of Thrawn is in a bunch of books, too many to simply ignore. As far as I'm concerned, there's a story here that still needs to be told to explain this.

Adrian: The games have to be taken with a grain of salt. As someone posted earlier, they are just designed to be fun to play. Does Luke Skywalker or Rookie One blow up the Death Star? Those kinds of things simply cannot be reconciled. Also, what do you mean by "this distinct ascent of Thrawn is in a bunch of books"? What exactly is in a bunch of books?
TIE Fighter was a great game, but I don't think it takes place in exactly the same Star Wars universe as the books and comics do.

Abel: Actually, TIE Fighter did come with a story, "The Stele Chronicles," continued in the book TIE Fighter Official Strategy Guide.

Adrian: Look at the huge Imperial civil war, which almost destroys the Empire, but is somehow never mentioned again, not to mention the new TIE Fighters which are never mentioned again, or the silly fact that the Emperor could be kidnapped from Coruscant by Zaarin's forces. There is also the odd fact that Thrawn is always shown in a white Grand Admiral's uniform, when he is supposed to be a Vice-Admiral.

Abel: There are logical explanations for these things, like:
#1: the Empire trying to keep a tight lid on something like an Imp revolt.

Adrian: I think word could have gotten out - if a pirate radio station could learn details about the movements of Grand Admirals, I think word would get out about Imperial fleets destroying one another! The Rebels would have hailed it as a sign the Empire was divided and corrupt, and told as many people as they could. Routine slicing into the Imperial computer networks would have revealed what was going on.

Abel: But would it? That's for creative continuity-patch artists to deal with. The ideas I gave were spur of the moment. Given enough brain storming and correlating ideas, an explanation can easily be made up.

Adrian: Yes, an explanation could be made up. But how convincing? The sheer (galaxy-wide) scale of the thing would make a cover-up impossible, I think.

Abel: #2: a limited number of the new TIE Fighters were produced (which, I think, is actually the explanation given in the EG to Vessels and Vehicles.)

Adrian: I haven't read that book, but I think that the plans for those fighters, at least, would have survived. And in the struggle for power that took place in the Empire later, shielded, hyperdrive capable TIE Fighters would have been a massive advantage. Some Moff or Admiral would have started up construction again.

Abel: Again, how do we know this didn't happen? There were lots of warlords around; who knows if the plans weren't destoryed or intercepted by some Rebels in an as yet untold RPG campaign.

Adrian: You're right, we don't. But if the authors were interested in reconciling the games with the books, this is exactly the sort of thing that Stackpole, who is familiar with the games could have mentioned - but didn't.

Abel: And #3: a Dark Side Adept in Palpatine's confidence could have been the one who betrayed and captured him.

Adrian: Hmm, perhaps, although I would have thought Palpatine would have been too powerful at that time.

Abel: I don't think the fact that these aren't heavily referenced is a reason to negate their occurence; I mean, the Clone Wars barely gets a nod in the Expanded Universe, and certainly *very* few specifics -- does that mean that the Trade Federation and all it's involvement never occured? Okay, records of that period are fragmentary, but it was only thirty years ago for goodness sake, aren't people alive that remember this stuff?

Adrian: I think there is a very good reason for the Clone Wars not having been mentioned - the prequels. GL wanted to keep that area free of entanglements. Its not that no-one in the SW universe would remember, it is that the authors were not allowed to let them remember. At the time many of the books were written, GL probably hadn't decided exactly what was going to be in the prequels anyway. Better to avoid the area entirely.

Abel: But, that's an explanation *out* of the universe of Star Wars. The problem is finding an in-universe one. It's not like a story can patch the problem by saying:

LUKE: Hey, how come we didn't know about the Trade Federation until now, or this planet Naboo?
HAN: Well, y'know kid, George didn't want any writers messing around with the Clone Wars stuff, so there's obviously couldn't have been any references to it up until now.

Adrian: I know, it's not good. Although there have been a few prequel era references, like recently Palpatine's right-hand man during his rise to power, Kinman Doriana, was mentioned in Vision of the Future. Be interesting to see if he turns up in the prequels. Here's hoping.

Abel: I noticed that too. I'm VERY interested to see how well this kind of stuff is paid attention to. Presenting a list of people that *should* have especially important roles during Palps early years:

Kinman Doriana -- Really close advisor
Admiral Screed -- Palp's #1 before Vader came into the picture
Sate Pestage -- Maybe. Depends on if he's really related to Palp or not.

Hmm, that's all I can think of right now. I've been making a list of stuff that should be important in the coming prequel era. I was thinking of putting out an article for every other issue of SWFA and shed some light on these EU guys that supposedly were around during the Clone Wars.
If one goes that road in patching continuity errors, then that application should be applied to the video games as well, stating that because of the very fact that they are games, some of the things in it don't seem to make sense, just like people "in-universe" not mentioning a single thing about all the stuff in Episode I. It's the same problem in both cases, and simply expository discrimination in giving one more weight than the other, the same reason that the Marvels have been ignored in the canon when compared to the new material being churned out.

Adrian: Its just a matter of taste, in the end. I choose to believe that because of the irreconcilable problems in the games, Rookie One killing the Death Star being the most notable, the games should be regarded as set in the Star Wars universe, but they didn't actually take place in the 'real' Star Wars universe.
Of course, this is using a historical approach. There is much to be said for Mike's 'myth' approach, in which all Star Wars works are seen as myths, and thus equally valid. This way, fewer mental gymnastics need to be performed to force all the works to fit with each other.

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